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	<title>Comments on: Briffa teaches, but will McIntyre ever learn?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://deepclimate.org/2009/10/30/briffa-teaches-but-will-mcintyre-ever-learn/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://deepclimate.org/2009/10/30/briffa-teaches-but-will-mcintyre-ever-learn/</link>
	<description>Exploring climate science disinformation in Canada and beyond</description>
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		<title>By: Rattus Norvegicus</title>
		<link>http://deepclimate.org/2009/10/30/briffa-teaches-but-will-mcintyre-ever-learn/#comment-1766</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rattus Norvegicus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 05:04:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepclimate.org/?p=998#comment-1766</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A better link is &lt;a href=&quot;http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/122225084/abstract&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.

I have to say that I am rather underwhelmed by the paper.  The author bases his discussion, which does not contradict Mann, et. al. 2009, on 71 proxies.  Mann used ~1200 proxies with greater geographical distribution.  I have to say that I would take an actual analysis of the data vs. the eyeballing approach taken in this rather weak paper.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A better link is <a href="http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/122225084/abstract" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
<p>I have to say that I am rather underwhelmed by the paper.  The author bases his discussion, which does not contradict Mann, et. al. 2009, on 71 proxies.  Mann used ~1200 proxies with greater geographical distribution.  I have to say that I would take an actual analysis of the data vs. the eyeballing approach taken in this rather weak paper.</p>
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		<title>By: Ziggi</title>
		<link>http://deepclimate.org/2009/10/30/briffa-teaches-but-will-mcintyre-ever-learn/#comment-1762</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ziggi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 22:54:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepclimate.org/?p=998#comment-1762</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Rattus,

You play a nasty game - whatever you want to tell sounds like you are not on the position to accept what &quot;raw paleo data&quot; taken from all around the globe show: 

The records show an amplitude between maximum and minimum temperatures during the past two millennia on centennial timescales ranging from c. 0.5 to 4°C and averaging c. 1.5–2°C for both high and low latitudes, although these variations are not always occurring synchronous. Both the Medieval Warm Period, the Little Ice Age and the 20th century warming are clearly visible.
&lt;em&gt;

[&lt;strong&gt;DC: &lt;/strong&gt;The paper is here:

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/122225084/abstract?CRETRY=1&amp;SRETRY=0

ORIGINAL REFERENCE: 
Ljungqvist, F.C. 2009. 
Temperature proxy records covering the last two millennia: 
a tabular and visual overview. 
Geografiska Annaler: Physical Geography, Vol. 91A, pp. 11-29.

However, there is no temperature reconstruction or analysis of the temperature proxies. So this paper does not address the question of MWP vs recent temperature, nor does it contradict Mann et al. 2009.

Rest of the comment is off topic and has been removed per comment policy.]&lt;/em&gt; 
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rattus,</p>
<p>You play a nasty game &#8211; whatever you want to tell sounds like you are not on the position to accept what &#8220;raw paleo data&#8221; taken from all around the globe show: </p>
<p>The records show an amplitude between maximum and minimum temperatures during the past two millennia on centennial timescales ranging from c. 0.5 to 4°C and averaging c. 1.5–2°C for both high and low latitudes, although these variations are not always occurring synchronous. Both the Medieval Warm Period, the Little Ice Age and the 20th century warming are clearly visible.<br />
<em></p>
<p>[<strong>DC: </strong>The paper is here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/122225084/abstract?CRETRY=1&#038;SRETRY=0" rel="nofollow">http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/122225084/abstract?CRETRY=1&#038;SRETRY=0</a></p>
<p>ORIGINAL REFERENCE:<br />
Ljungqvist, F.C. 2009.<br />
Temperature proxy records covering the last two millennia:<br />
a tabular and visual overview.<br />
Geografiska Annaler: Physical Geography, Vol. 91A, pp. 11-29.</p>
<p>However, there is no temperature reconstruction or analysis of the temperature proxies. So this paper does not address the question of MWP vs recent temperature, nor does it contradict Mann et al. 2009.</p>
<p>Rest of the comment is off topic and has been removed per comment policy.]</em></p>
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		<title>By: Rattus Norvegicus</title>
		<link>http://deepclimate.org/2009/10/30/briffa-teaches-but-will-mcintyre-ever-learn/#comment-1761</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rattus Norvegicus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 21:08:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepclimate.org/?p=998#comment-1761</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your cites are somewhat, shall we say, lacking.

The first cite, to Briffa et. al. 2008 in no way contradicts the Mann article.

The second cite is to a collection of raw paleo data.  Huh?

The Esper paper presents an opinion which may have been correct at the time the paper was written (or may not have been correct) in the wake of the release of AR4.  The Mann result does not make this paper incorrect, nor does it make the Mann result incorrect.  All we can say at this time is that the jury is still out.

The fourth cite says that the climate was humid during the time frame of the MWP, not that the climate was warm (chalk up one for Mann).

The final paper has nothing at all to do with climate.  Rather it seems to be looking at the efficacy of a particular mite as a proxy for human population levels.

I suggest you bone up on the research and come back with papers which make your point better.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your cites are somewhat, shall we say, lacking.</p>
<p>The first cite, to Briffa et. al. 2008 in no way contradicts the Mann article.</p>
<p>The second cite is to a collection of raw paleo data.  Huh?</p>
<p>The Esper paper presents an opinion which may have been correct at the time the paper was written (or may not have been correct) in the wake of the release of AR4.  The Mann result does not make this paper incorrect, nor does it make the Mann result incorrect.  All we can say at this time is that the jury is still out.</p>
<p>The fourth cite says that the climate was humid during the time frame of the MWP, not that the climate was warm (chalk up one for Mann).</p>
<p>The final paper has nothing at all to do with climate.  Rather it seems to be looking at the efficacy of a particular mite as a proxy for human population levels.</p>
<p>I suggest you bone up on the research and come back with papers which make your point better.</p>
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		<title>By: hmclean</title>
		<link>http://deepclimate.org/2009/10/30/briffa-teaches-but-will-mcintyre-ever-learn/#comment-1751</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[hmclean]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 22:17:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepclimate.org/?p=998#comment-1751</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[re &quot;It’s time for scientists to ponder how to respond effectively.&quot;

The assault on climate-change science is beginning to resemble a DNS attack, and there&#039;s no question it&#039;s very effective in fora where formal rules of evidence and the right of cross-examination do not apply.

Where such conditions ARE enforced, science can more than hold its own: consider the Dover evolution case of a few years ago.

We know the denialosphere has deep pockets - to which we unwillingly contribute every time we buy gas for the car; perhaps it&#039;s time to spread the wealth.

Are there any lawyers out there who can explain why unjustified comments accusing scientists - either as individuals or organizations - of fraud cannot be tried for libel?

&lt;em&gt;[&lt;strong&gt;DC:&lt;/strong&gt; I&#039;m not a lawyer, so I&#039;ll defer to those with more expertise. However, in most jurisdictions libel is not a criminal offence. Rather it is a question of civil law, and only the persons or organizations who were libelled would have standing to bring an action. Libel laws, and therefore chances for success,  vary greatly from country to country.]&lt;/em&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re &#8220;It’s time for scientists to ponder how to respond effectively.&#8221;</p>
<p>The assault on climate-change science is beginning to resemble a DNS attack, and there&#8217;s no question it&#8217;s very effective in fora where formal rules of evidence and the right of cross-examination do not apply.</p>
<p>Where such conditions ARE enforced, science can more than hold its own: consider the Dover evolution case of a few years ago.</p>
<p>We know the denialosphere has deep pockets &#8211; to which we unwillingly contribute every time we buy gas for the car; perhaps it&#8217;s time to spread the wealth.</p>
<p>Are there any lawyers out there who can explain why unjustified comments accusing scientists &#8211; either as individuals or organizations &#8211; of fraud cannot be tried for libel?</p>
<p><em>[<strong>DC:</strong> I'm not a lawyer, so I'll defer to those with more expertise. However, in most jurisdictions libel is not a criminal offence. Rather it is a question of civil law, and only the persons or organizations who were libelled would have standing to bring an action. Libel laws, and therefore chances for success,  vary greatly from country to country.]</em></p>
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		<title>By: Ziggi</title>
		<link>http://deepclimate.org/2009/10/30/briffa-teaches-but-will-mcintyre-ever-learn/#comment-1148</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ziggi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 08:27:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepclimate.org/?p=998#comment-1148</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Scott,

This article missess many new finings and is completely biased!

Specifically I mean the following readings:

http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/363/1501/2269.full

ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/contributions_by_author/ljungqvist2009/ljungqvist2009recons.txt

http://www.springerlink.com/content/c1411j3532u1n241

http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2009/2009GL037375.shtml

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&amp;_udi=B6WH8-4N6Y5S4-1&amp;_user=10&amp;_rdoc=1&amp;_fmt=&amp;_orig=search&amp;_sort=d&amp;_docanchor=&amp;view=c&amp;_searchStrId=1118491268&amp;_rerunOrigin=google&amp;_acct=C000050221&amp;_version=1&amp;_urlVersion=0&amp;_userid=10&amp;md5=2643629537af9d6d9e2c9648d72fd4ad

Nope - dozens of new findings show clearly MWP was a global phenomenon and it is stygmatic global warming advocats first denied it&#039;s existence and now try to put it into &quot;local&quot; frame.

Funny &quot;local&quot; indded - spead through 5 continents :-)))]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott,</p>
<p>This article missess many new finings and is completely biased!</p>
<p>Specifically I mean the following readings:</p>
<p><a href="http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/363/1501/2269.full" rel="nofollow">http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/363/1501/2269.full</a></p>
<p><a href="ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/contributions_by_author/ljungqvist2009/ljungqvist2009recons.txt" rel="nofollow">ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/contributions_by_author/ljungqvist2009/ljungqvist2009recons.txt</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.springerlink.com/content/c1411j3532u1n241" rel="nofollow">http://www.springerlink.com/content/c1411j3532u1n241</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2009/2009GL037375.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2009/2009GL037375.shtml</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&#038;_udi=B6WH8-4N6Y5S4-1&#038;_user=10&#038;_rdoc=1&#038;_fmt=&#038;_orig=search&#038;_sort=d&#038;_docanchor=&#038;view=c&#038;_searchStrId=1118491268&#038;_rerunOrigin=google&#038;_acct=C000050221&#038;_version=1&#038;_urlVersion=0&#038;_userid=10&#038;md5=2643629537af9d6d9e2c9648d72fd4ad" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&#038;_udi=B6WH8-4N6Y5S4-1&#038;_user=10&#038;_rdoc=1&#038;_fmt=&#038;_orig=search&#038;_sort=d&#038;_docanchor=&#038;view=c&#038;_searchStrId=1118491268&#038;_rerunOrigin=google&#038;_acct=C000050221&#038;_version=1&#038;_urlVersion=0&#038;_userid=10&#038;md5=2643629537af9d6d9e2c9648d72fd4ad</a></p>
<p>Nope &#8211; dozens of new findings show clearly MWP was a global phenomenon and it is stygmatic global warming advocats first denied it&#8217;s existence and now try to put it into &#8220;local&#8221; frame.</p>
<p>Funny &#8220;local&#8221; indded &#8211; spead through 5 continents <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> ))</p>
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		<title>By: Scott A. Mandia</title>
		<link>http://deepclimate.org/2009/10/30/briffa-teaches-but-will-mcintyre-ever-learn/#comment-1143</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott A. Mandia]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 03:30:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepclimate.org/?p=998#comment-1143</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mann et al. (2009) just published an article you might like to read.  If you cannot get &lt;em&gt;Science&lt;/em&gt; then go to:

http://www.skepticalscience.com/Was-there-a-Medieval-Warm-Period.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mann et al. (2009) just published an article you might like to read.  If you cannot get <em>Science</em> then go to:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.skepticalscience.com/Was-there-a-Medieval-Warm-Period.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.skepticalscience.com/Was-there-a-Medieval-Warm-Period.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ziggi</title>
		<link>http://deepclimate.org/2009/10/30/briffa-teaches-but-will-mcintyre-ever-learn/#comment-1127</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ziggi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 00:07:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepclimate.org/?p=998#comment-1127</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[OK, honestly - I am not &quot;sceptic&quot; in a common sense. I do not deny Global Warming nor scientific scrutiny of the GW advocates.

Anyway - I see some bias in the discussion on the subject:

1) Annoying trend to neglect the meaning of MWP or even the actual existence of such a warm period in the past.

&lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;[DC: The MWP has been discussed in detail in the IPCC reports. 

I have no idea what you mean by &quot;scientific scrutiny&quot; of the GW advocates. Perhaps you could cite some relevant papers or at least a raise a specific issue.

The rest of your points are off topic. ]&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, honestly &#8211; I am not &#8220;sceptic&#8221; in a common sense. I do not deny Global Warming nor scientific scrutiny of the GW advocates.</p>
<p>Anyway &#8211; I see some bias in the discussion on the subject:</p>
<p>1) Annoying trend to neglect the meaning of MWP or even the actual existence of such a warm period in the past.</p>
<p><strong><em>[DC: The MWP has been discussed in detail in the IPCC reports. </p>
<p>I have no idea what you mean by "scientific scrutiny" of the GW advocates. Perhaps you could cite some relevant papers or at least a raise a specific issue.</p>
<p>The rest of your points are off topic. ]</em></strong></p>
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		<title>By: Ziggi</title>
		<link>http://deepclimate.org/2009/10/30/briffa-teaches-but-will-mcintyre-ever-learn/#comment-1117</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ziggi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:52:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepclimate.org/?p=998#comment-1117</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Then I would really like to know how actually you did come to the point when you believe that we have strong and convincing evidence for future climate scenario (so that immediate and counter-reaction of massive cost in needed to save the climate) while myself got to the conclusion that all predictions are based on extremely non-linear models what generate significant varations in their results dependent on slightest change of their input data and the model itself?

&lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;[DC: Sigh ... I&#039;m letting through the first part of your comment, against my better judgment. The details you bring up are way off topic, though, as you have already been warned.

I have read several chapters of IPCC TAR and AR4, which are fairly conservative summaries of the science, and have made a point of absorbing specific papers of interest to me. As well, I have examined the &quot;skeptic&quot; arguments in some detail, and not one holds up to scrutiny (and that includes the latest kerfuffle concerning the selection of emails stolen from CRU). In fact, I consider the intellectual dishonesty and vacuity on the skeptic side as a major corroboration of climate science.

But, for the last time, I am not interested in discussing the overall state of climate science on this thread. So further comments along these lines, including oblique or explicit references to the CRU hack will be edited or deleted. 

And, yes, I will be posting on specific aspects of the CRU hack. You&#039;ll just have to be patient for a little longer.]&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then I would really like to know how actually you did come to the point when you believe that we have strong and convincing evidence for future climate scenario (so that immediate and counter-reaction of massive cost in needed to save the climate) while myself got to the conclusion that all predictions are based on extremely non-linear models what generate significant varations in their results dependent on slightest change of their input data and the model itself?</p>
<p><em><strong>[DC: Sigh ... I'm letting through the first part of your comment, against my better judgment. The details you bring up are way off topic, though, as you have already been warned.</p>
<p>I have read several chapters of IPCC TAR and AR4, which are fairly conservative summaries of the science, and have made a point of absorbing specific papers of interest to me. As well, I have examined the "skeptic" arguments in some detail, and not one holds up to scrutiny (and that includes the latest kerfuffle concerning the selection of emails stolen from CRU). In fact, I consider the intellectual dishonesty and vacuity on the skeptic side as a major corroboration of climate science.</p>
<p>But, for the last time, I am not interested in discussing the overall state of climate science on this thread. So further comments along these lines, including oblique or explicit references to the CRU hack will be edited or deleted. </p>
<p>And, yes, I will be posting on specific aspects of the CRU hack. You'll just have to be patient for a little longer.]</strong></em></p>
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		<title>By: Ziggi</title>
		<link>http://deepclimate.org/2009/10/30/briffa-teaches-but-will-mcintyre-ever-learn/#comment-1111</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ziggi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:04:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepclimate.org/?p=998#comment-1111</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hmm,

As you wrote in the &quot;about&quot; section:

&quot;I look at the organizations that propagate climate science disinformation and the public relations professionals who have worked behind the scenes to ensure maximum impact of that disinformation.&quot;

It seems you already presume any form of critical scepticism towards scaremongering interpretation of very uncertain scientific data (or data providing various results dependent on slightest input change) is &quot;disinformation&quot;.

I do not think this is appropriate assumption - I would rather think you are biased and effectively filter discussion when it turns into &quot;wrong&quot; direction.

Regards,
&lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;
[DC: I don&#039;t &quot;presume&quot; or &quot;assume&quot; anything. Rather my assertions were based on two years of researching astroturf organizations like Friends of Science, think tanks Fraser Institute and deceptive ol-industry funded PR operatives like Tom Harris and Morten Paulsen. After six months or so of blogging, I&#039;ve seen nothing to change my initial assessment.]&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm,</p>
<p>As you wrote in the &#8220;about&#8221; section:</p>
<p>&#8220;I look at the organizations that propagate climate science disinformation and the public relations professionals who have worked behind the scenes to ensure maximum impact of that disinformation.&#8221;</p>
<p>It seems you already presume any form of critical scepticism towards scaremongering interpretation of very uncertain scientific data (or data providing various results dependent on slightest input change) is &#8220;disinformation&#8221;.</p>
<p>I do not think this is appropriate assumption &#8211; I would rather think you are biased and effectively filter discussion when it turns into &#8220;wrong&#8221; direction.</p>
<p>Regards,<br />
<em><strong><br />
[DC: I don't "presume" or "assume" anything. Rather my assertions were based on two years of researching astroturf organizations like Friends of Science, think tanks Fraser Institute and deceptive ol-industry funded PR operatives like Tom Harris and Morten Paulsen. After six months or so of blogging, I've seen nothing to change my initial assessment.]</strong></em></p>
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		<title>By: Ziggi</title>
		<link>http://deepclimate.org/2009/10/30/briffa-teaches-but-will-mcintyre-ever-learn/#comment-1104</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ziggi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 23:49:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepclimate.org/?p=998#comment-1104</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;[DC: Ziggi, you are repeating yourself. That&#039;s enough now.]&lt;/em&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>[DC: Ziggi, you are repeating yourself. That's enough now.]</em></p>
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